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I believe the reason the Epifanes is so thick(high solids) is that it is considered a "concentrated" product that you then thin to a usable state, where most varnishes can be used straight fro the can. Coming from Europe, this would also make it more economical to ship.

If you aren't concerned with the smell and such, polyester can be brushed just like a varnish; it self-levels nicely and you can level and buff it in 2 to 3 days. At over 90% solids and not needing any dilution for brushing, it will off-gas and become odorless(and safe) quickly, as-in well under 24 hours. You still have to deal with a barrier coat if applying over exotic woods, but that, too, can be brushed, or even rubbed-on.

In short, there -are- options for brushable finishes if the softer properties of a true varnish are not what you desire.

I'd like to add that the Epifanes has a really nice, nice lustre that was alluded to earlier.

Also seems like it's getting harder over time. It's been about 3 weeks now and it's noticeably harder than a week ago. Still dents with fingernail but not as easily. Also now has a harder 'feel' to it if that makes any sense, which of course makes perfect sense as time tends to cure the finish more and more.

I'm going to keep watching and testing. Again in this case I used the 1:1:1 Epifanes High Gloss varnish:spray thinner:accelerator formula referred to earlier in the thread.

Still don't know if it will ever be my go to finish because of the 3 part formula needed, when there are simpler alternatives, but who knows maybe the plus of its outstanding finish lustre will out weigh the effort to gather and mix the 3 parts for finishing.

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Thank You and Best To All

Still don't know if it will ever be my go to finish because of the 3 part formula needed,

It doesn't have to be a 3 part formula, or at least, not 3 parts of specialized stuff. I thin with turpentine and add a few drops of japan drier, and the latter isn't really necessary but since I have some, I use some.

Thanks very much for the input. I'm listening (reading) and learning. When I read the Epifanes FAQ page they had some info on the accelerator and recommended a very small amount, more like the amount of Japan drier your suggesting.. Certainly way less than the 1:1:1 ratio Laurent has suggested.

The Epifanes finish is getting more impressive over time. Rich looking, warm lustre and a very nice gloss. I buffed by hand with some Macguiars products and got a nice sheen without too much effort.

Another factor, and it's not a small one for builders who are not working on a years long back log and very few to a single instrument is the dry time. I'm thinking guessing that 4 - 6 weeks should be really good for the Epifanes and 8 - 10 days for a water borne. It's hard to let a guitar sit for a long time before finishing it, maybe that's just me.

Thanks again for the information.

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Thank You and Best To All

In the best study I've seen of instrument finishes, he found that drying oils have high damping, while resins tend not to. In a mix, like an oil-resin varnish, the more oil the higher the damping. 'Spar' varnishes have higher oil content then 'rubbing varnishes, and thus most likely have higher damping. Shellac and nitro both had low damping, although nitro was the lower of the two. Nitro is also harder.

Whatever effect the finish has on the sound, the less of it there is the less the effect. I'd prefer to use a somewhat harder finish that protects the wood better, and put on a thinner film, if that's possible.

All oil varnishes take at least a few months to fully cure. They shrink and get harder as they do.

Dang! I won't use nitro because I know I'm wallowing in a chemical waste dump, but I actually like the smell. Why am I more allergic to turpentine than anything I know of?

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Jim Kirby
kirby@udel.edu

I'm with you Jim,
Turpentine makes me nauseous, but lacquer doesn't bother me a bit. I think it's because I've burned out all the brain cells that react to nitro from using it over the years.

I hope there is no taboo against reviving older threads on this forum. I read this entire thread with great interest, and learned several things. One thing I noticed as a newer member that may be obvious to regulars; With a couple of exceptions, as a member described their favorite finish, and why they liked it, they did not mention the type of guitar they were applying it to. I know that finish characteristics that are desirable in a classical, steel string and even electric are not the same, so it would follow that an excellent varnish for a solid body electric is probably not desirable on a classical - or maybe it is...

I'm trying to find an alternative to nitro lacquer for use on classical bodies. (I'll use French polish on the soundboards) I know French Polish for everything on the guitar is popular with a lot of classical guitar makers, but I want something that is a little more durable and also less labor intensive.

You might be interested in watching Robbie O'Brien's video on the new shellac finish "Royal-Lac" which is shellac with resins added to increase the durability. It takes several weeks to completely cross link, but once cured, is water and alcohol proof to a point. Go to shellacfinishes.com and watch all of the videos. Vijay (the owner) finishes a table in a number of vids and in the last one he lets alcohol and water sit on the finish in a puddle for 15 minutes with no effect.

Some of us, me included, have had some success with Tru-Oil. I like it. Can't say it's easier than French polish, but it is less intense in the effort. Application is easy. It's the sanding back that takes a bit of effort. Some folks use the finger application method that requires less leveling.

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Waddy

Photobucket Build Album Library

Sound Clips of most of my guitars

Kevin Aram uses an oil finish (Liberon) and I believe Robert Ruck used to use an oil varnish...pretty big names in the classical world.
I still like to french polish at least the top but I think most finishes work fine so long as they're applied thinly.

I've never understood this idea that French Polish is susceptible to alcohol and water. It seems that this idea has spread like wildfire throughout the net and everyone takes it as though it's fact.
I've pooled water on a Shellac surface and left it overnight. Nothing. I've pooled warm water (125F) on Shellac, nothing. Even hot water at 180F just leaves a slight surface halo. Easily dealt with.
I've pooled a very strong beer (9%) on Shellac: nothing. I wouldn't mind but I've done these tests several times over many years and the results have always been the same.
I haven't done the test but I suspect that your average whisky would only do minor surface damage if it was carefully mopped up fairly quickly. Try stripping shellac with your average strength Whisky, you might find it a bit harder than one would imagine.
It seems that it's only certain sweat types where Shellac becomes susceptible.

Michael for the life of me I can't understand why you would put beer and whiskey on a shellac surface. Your supposed to drink it my boy. The beer and whiskey not the shellac. IMHO


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I tried that as well. Nothing. Someone once wrote a song about it.

Somebody wrote a song about drinking shellac? Who'd a thunk it?


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Shellac is soluble in alcohol and in alkaline water solutions. It probably takes more than 9% alcohol to cut it quickly, and maybe even more than the 40% or so in whiskey. Pure water does'nt bother it to speak of, and won't penetrate even a thin coating that's sound.

I do notice that when I've used a lot of oil in FP that it seems to affect the film. For one thing. I will get 'witness lines' if I polish over it later. I have to wonder if it does other things, perhaps making it more susceptible to water?

Alan,

Do you typically use drying or non-drying oils? I stopped using walnut oil, not from observing this but from a sense that the dried surface needed much more cleanup than I was expecting. That was in my first few attempts at the process, though, and my sense that the process goes better now may be due as much to improvement in technique and use of less oil as it is to the switch to olive oil.

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Jim Kirby
kirby@udel.edu

I agree, Jim. I quit using Walnut oil too, and my results are much better and more easily obtained.

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Waddy

Photobucket Build Album Library

Sound Clips of most of my guitars

I was using walnut oil for the most part, but may have tried cold-pressed linseed oil as well. I'm sure the fact that both are drying oils had something to do with it.

check out michael thames and stephen faulk u tube videos they build up their FP with blonde shellac and no oil until the second stage and a good layer of shellac has been layed down